Dazed and Confused SD 455

[snaggeltooth]

since your engine choices are basically race engines stuck in a production car Ill go with the 421 SD and the 428HO....

[Street Lethal]

since your engine choices are basically race engines stuck in a production car...

There were many great production muscle cars that were offered with race engines, including the infamous Hemi powered Dart...

The Chevy's that I mentioned are just a few. There was simply no need for Chevy to make every single one of it's muscle car's 500+ horsepower (not everyone was obviously looking for that, especially with rising insurance rates, and gas prices), so comparing Pontiac's "mighty" Super Duty's with the de-tuned Chevy production cars is, well, silly...

[snaggeltooth]

I see so a Pontiac race engine dont count but a suposed 500hp + Ls6 is just you normal Chevy engine ..... And a all aluminum 427 is just a normal everyday grocery getter ...
Must be nice to be GMs golden child , when one of the other 3 BOP came out with something better than theirs they would just outlaw it ...

[Street Lethal]

I see so a Pontiac race engine dont count but a suposed 500hp + Ls6 is just you normal Chevy engine ..... And a all aluminum 427 is just a normal everyday grocery getter ...

Must be nice to be GMs golden child , when one of the other 3 BOP came out with something better than theirs they would just outlaw it ...

Well, it's now very clear that I have mistaken you for somebody else, as your responses are getting quite strange and incoherent. You seem to know next to nothing in reference to Chevy engine's, nor how GM shamelessly mis-quoted the dyno numbers due to the ever rising insurance premiums. Think the advertised LS6 was a mere 450-460 horsepower? Think again.

Your obviously dancing around the entire argument, while quoting ridiculous things such as; "when one of the other 3 BOP came out with something better than theirs they would just outlaw it". Outlaw it? What the devil are you talking about lmao?

Maybe if Pontiac spent more money on their engine development team, as opposed to scheming their way to more sales... by taking the names of famous races for their models (LeMans, TransAm, GranPrix, Bonneville, need I go on) along with paying high bucks for Hollywood stars such as Burt Reynolds to do their work for them, things might have been a little different.

Chevy produced, and always produced, quite well. Sorry if this tends to bother you as a Pontiac fan...

[snaggeltooth]

Outlaw it? What the devil are you talking about lmao

Ohh so I guess you never heard of the Banshee..When Pontiac came out with it GM said No ..The Corvette will be our fladship and the only two seater ... The car came out in 1966 with a 326 , so you know a 421 Tri Power would have fit right in...
I wonder how well Bandit would have done with a 77 350 Chevy ...

You also admit that GM let Chevy come out with a engine that was well above its posted 450 Hp .... I guess it ihas nothing to do with the fact it was a Chevy ....

[9T8W66]

I'll put up any version of Chevy's 396 against any version of Pontiac's 400, any version of Chevy's 427 against any version of Pontiac's 428, and any version of Chevy's 454 against any version of Pontiac's 455. There you go. My argument was their cylinder head design, and NOT their yearly factory displacement. Go ahead. Pick an engine, and lets continue on with this ridiculous discussion...

I'll Take that Bet
`69 CHEVELLE L89 VS `69 GTO R/A IV
M21's with 4.10's and 4.33's respectively

All things being Equal it would be a toss up

And you didn't say anything about 409's vs 421's ? I wonder why ?

[Street Lethal]

Ohh so I guess you never heard of the Banshee. When Pontiac came out with it GM said No. The Corvette will be our fladship and the only two seater. The car came out in 1966 with a 326 , so you know a 421 Tri Power would have fit right in...

The "Banshee" concept was just that, a concept. This never had anything nothing to do with the Rat vs Poncho engines, which makes it completely irrelevant in this discussion. You were not there next to DeLorean at that particular time, so nobody knows the real truth as to it's cancellation...

I'd be the first to admit, much like Mickey Thompson's hemispherical cylinder heads, that the "Banshee" project would have been a great move for Pontiac. But it didn't happen, so let's get over it, shall we...?

I wonder how well Bandit would have done with a 77 350 Chevy...

With the right dynamic compression, duration and lift, I'm sure he would have done just fine. Incidently, I have a buddy who runs 12's with a naturally aspirated, anemic, but worked, 305 small block Chevy. You were saying again...?

You also admit that GM let Chevy come out with a engine that was well above its posted 450 Hp. I guess it ihas nothing to do with the fact it was a Chevy...

I'd be the first to admit that Chevy got away with murder, but this doesn't take anything away from their engine designs. The big block Chevy was a powerhouse, and although they made various versions of them, all of them share the same potential of mega horsepower and torque, because of those cylinder heads...

I'll Take that Bet, `69 CHEVELLE L89 VS `69 GTO R/A IV M21's with 4.10's and 4.33's respectively...

Was that a joke? Let's stick with dyno numbers please, as we're talking about engine horsepower and torque, as opposed to elapsed times. If I wanted something to demolish your '69 Ram Air IV in the quarter mile, I wouldn't bother with a big block, I'd simply go with a cheap and modded high winding 327 Chevy, in a 2500-lb car...

And you didn't say anything about 409's vs 421's ? I wonder why ?

Irrelevant. Much like the Chevy small block 400, the big Chevy 409, although having loads of potential, is something I wouldn't bother with, stock (which is why I didn't bother mentioning it). Does this make the factory 421 Pontiac better than the factory 409 Chevy? Maybe. Does the Chevy 409 have more long term potential than the Pontiac 421? Most definitely...

Again though, we go round and round like we're in a square dance, dodging the original argument. LS6 vs SD-455. LS6 wins. Just admit it already, will ya...

[snaggeltooth]

I love the way that if you take a SB chevy and do this and that to it it can become as strong as a Poncho...That is aslong as the Poncho just sits there and gets nothing done to it .....lol... Nice advantage for Chevy ....

[snaggeltooth]

Again though, we go round and round like we're in a square dance, dodging the original argument. LS6 vs SD-455. LS6 wins. Just admit it already, will ya...

Muscarcar Magazine had a shootout of all the top stars of the Muscle cars .. Hemis , Ls6 , 428cj. 455 stage 1s and W-30 $55.. And there was a guy with a RAM AIr II Firebird that was cleaning all their clocks .. just goes to show mega HP dont always win races .. Say what you will...
and it was a stock class only thing changed was you could run modern tires but had to be age specs ....

[9T8W66]

Dyno numbers don't mean Squat.
Dyno's are tools for tuning Nothing more.
The real test is Quarter mile. because the car with the most Power doesn't always win.
We are talking stock for stock aren't we ?
If we are then my original statement still stands L89 Vs Ram Air IV
You said any version vs any version.

And LS6 vs SD 455 is closer than you think
The LS6 with the right Trans and gearing is obviously Quicker (M21 4.11)
But the most gearing available for and SD was 3.42 (auto or 4spd)
A 3.31 geared Automatic LS6 is not going to Destroy an SD 455
Add to that, That the SD will run on Pump Gas with a Quad an iron intake and a Hydraulic cam vs the LS6's Holley, Aluminum High Rise, Solid Lifters, and 110 Octane.

It's Obvious we all love these Cars Our passion for them is undeniable.
Peace

[05gtoautoX]

arguing with this guy(street lethal) is a waste of time, he's a hard core chevy guy, He's going to defend the SBC/BBC till the end, just as some of us would the poncho. He obviously hasn't run into many ponchos is his BBC powered car, Otherwise he may have a different opinion. And one more thing, he wants us pontiac guys to prove him wrong, and give him a reason why the poncho engine is as good or superior to the LS-6. Well from what I've read all he can say is the heads on a BBC are bigger, I've stated my thoughts on this,
Using his theory no car in stock configuration in the the same decade (1964-1974) could come close to outrunning any chevrolet vehicle in stock configuration. Does that sound right? well, don't bother responding to this streetlethal, I won't be back on this thread. As i said, I'm a poncho guy you're a chevy guy, we'll never change, or will our thoughts. So Maybe I'll see you at the track.

[Street Lethal]

Guys, are you even reading any of my posts lol. Yes, I happen to be a Chevy guy, who currently owns TWO Pontiac Firebirds, a '92 Firebird, and a '98 Trans Am...

Now, the argument was Rat vs Poncho, and which engine has more potential, horsepower and torque wise. From the factory, the LS6 was more powerful than the SD-455. None of you bother to admit this fact, you just blow smoke by continually spewing meaningless things, while emphatically countering the real discussion here with "if Pontiac did this, and if Pontiac did that"... but guess what, they didn't.

Dyno numbers don't mean Squat. Dyno's are tools for tuning Nothing more. The real test is Quarter mile. because the car with the most Power doesn't always win...

Having a Grand National powered '92 Firebird, in which finally presented me with a ten second time slip just before e-Town ended it's season last weekend, I more than agree with that statement of yours. However, if anyone cared to actually read my posts though they'd find that I'm not referring to track results...

You Pontiac guys are a little too superficial, don't you think...

[snaggeltooth]

Nope Im not going to admit a LS6 is more powerful than a 455Sd ... Nope because you are running a 11to 1 engine vs a 8.4 to 1 engine ... Make the engines equal and then we will see ...

[Street Lethal]

Nope because you are running a 11to 1 engine vs a 8.4 to 1 engine...

I am? I'll give you two very specific engines, during two very specific years, with two completely different compression ratio's, in Pontiac's favor. How does that sound....?

1970 Pontiac 455-CI, 4 Barrel, Bore and Stroke of 4.1510×4.21, 10.25 Compression Ratio, Maximum Brake Horsepower 370 @ 4600-RPM, Maximum Torque Lbs. Ft. 500 @ 3100-RPM...

1971 Chevy 454-CI, 4 Barrel, Bore and Stroke of 4.251×4.00, Compression Ratio 9.0, Maximum Brake Horsepower 425 @ 5600-RPM, Maximum Torque Lbs. Ft. 475 @ 4000-RPM...

Please note that I used a '71 Chevy engine because you wanted an engine that shared a similar compression level. The 454's used during the '70 production year ran over 11.00 compression. The '71 454 version I used above only squeezes 9.0, and yet it still makes more power than the 10.25 Pontiac 455...

Where's your factual proof...?

[snaggeltooth]

in 1970 a 455 was not offered in a firebird or GTO so you have a regular big car motor..
I do not know what engine you have there the LS5 in 1971 only put out 365Hp... Must be another one of those special chevy Motors GM let them put out ..
Ohh thats right it is the ZR2 a Vette only engine ....

[snaggeltooth]

Another Corvette Legend: The 1971 LS6
The LS6 engine RPO has been offered once before in Corvette history, but only for one model year (1971). With 454 cubic inches (7.4 liters), a cast-iron "big-block" and aluminum heads, the first LS6 was second only to the full-blown L88 racing engine offered from 1967 through 1969 - in terms of both power and legend.

The original LS6 produced 425 bhp (gross) and was the most powerful engine offered in 1971. Only 188 cars were produced with this powerplant, less than one-percent of Corvette's 21,801-production run for the year. The option price was $1,221.00, or 22-percent of the coupe's $5,496.00 base price.

When tested by a leading automotive magazine, an LS6 with a four-speed manual and a 3.36:1 limited-slip differential produced the following numbers:

• 0 to 60 mph = 5.3 seconds
• Quarter-mile = 13.8 seconds@105 mph
• Fuel economy = 9-14 mpg



Also in 1971 a ZR2 package was offered. It was priced at $1,747.00 and included the LS6, a heavy-duty, close-ratio four-speed manual transmission, heavy-duty power brakes, transistorized ignition, lightweight aluminum radiator, special springs, shocks, and front and rear stabilizer bars. A total of only 12 ZR2-equipped Corvettes were produced, making them even rarer than the Z06 models referenced earlier
Funny you didnt mention that .....

[9T8W66]

I am? I'll give you two very specific engines, during two very specific years, with two completely different compression ratio's, in Pontiac's favor. How does that sound....?

1970 Pontiac 455-CI, 4 Barrel, Bore and Stroke of 4.1510×4.21, 10.25 Compression Ratio, Maximum Brake Horsepower 370 @ 4600-RPM, Maximum Torque Lbs. Ft. 500 @ 3100-RPM...

1971 Chevy 454-CI, 4 Barrel, Bore and Stroke of 4.251×4.00, Compression Ratio 9.0, Maximum Brake Horsepower 425 @ 5600-RPM, Maximum Torque Lbs. Ft. 475 @ 4000-RPM...

Please note that I used a '71 Chevy engine because you wanted an engine that shared a similar compression level. The 454's used during the '70 production year ran over 11.00 compression. The '71 454 version I used above only squeezes 9.0, and yet it still makes more power than the 10.25 Pontiac 455...

Where's your factual proof...?

Gimme a Break
The 1970 455 was less power full even than the 428 HO from `69
It uses the same cam as the 350 HP 400's. the 067 (P) Grind 273/289 410/410
I'd rather have a `71 (LS5)455HO at least it has an 068 (S) cam and Round port Heads.

[Street Lethal]

in 1970 a 455 was not offered in a firebird or GTO so you have a regular big car motor. I do not know what engine you have there the LS5 in 1971 only put out 365Hp... Must be another one of those special chevy Motors GM let them put out...

Again, you jump to an entirely different argument. You asked me to make the engines equal (in reference to compression levels), and then we will see. Well, I offered a 454 with only 9.0 compression (in comparison with the Pontiac's 10.25), yet it still made much more horsepower. These engines were offered from the factory, so what's the problem?

You keep jumping to the "special" Chevy's that were made, which is completely irrelevant to this argument. These engines were both offered from the factory, with Pontiac clearly having the compression advantage (as per your request), and the Chevy made more power, with much less compression. I did not use the Super Duty engines because of their low compression levels, you wanted something higher, and your still not happy...

What would be a more fair comparison on your behalf? Would you prefer the Pontiac's engine to have some unbelievable cam spec's such as 795/800 995/1000 @ 100-LSA, with the Chevy having 115/120 350/365 @ 125-LSA? Would this make it more fair then lol....?

[Street Lethal]

It uses the same cam as the 350 HP 400's. the 067 (P) Grind 273/289 410/410. I'd rather have a `71 (LS5)455HO at least it has an 068 (S) cam and Round port Heads....

AND THERE WE HAVE IT!!!!! BINGO!!!! GET THIS MAN A CIGAR ROTFFLMMFAO!!!!

That was exactly my point this whole freaking time, and wow, it only took a few pages to get it across for you Pontiac fans. Bigger heads, means taking advantage of more dynamic and static compression levels, as well as duration and lift. Period. That is where the power is found, the cylinder heads, and since the Rat heads are bigger, they'll always be able to flow and handle more (in reference to compression, and cam specs). Is this so freaking hard to comprende lol....?

[snaggeltooth]

Again, you jump to an entirely different argument. You asked me to make the engines equal (in reference to compression levels), and then we will see. Well, I offered a 454 with only 9.0 compression (in comparison with the Pontiac's 10.25), yet it still made much more horsepower. These engines were offered from the factory, so what's the problem?



Are you kidding me a Race engine out of a Vette vs a engine out of a Catalina or Bonneville .... Didnt read the article it was the LS6 in the 71 Vette ...and all of 12 were made .. Why not put a LS5 vs a 455 ho ... but playing by the rules has never been a stong point for chevy anyway .. I though GM put a ban on all factory backed raceing ...must have a big BACK DOOR over there at GM seems a lot of things went through it ...