is this out of hand yet? starting to appear that way.

[jiveass]

i can visually see the testing in the youtube videos, therefore, i will believe...besides, i have shot various items made of metal, wood, plastic, even animals with #8shot and it can do some damage at certain range.....hell, #6shot destroyed a metal bucket with 1 shot....dont get me wrong, id love to own a 223/556 rifle, but when things go bump in the night at my house, i reach for the 870 over the 40s&w.....and would do so if i owned any other gun....

[Firebirdjones]

I like shotguns and their ability to hit just about anything in the general area you are aiming at And rifles are nice too, but not my prefered choice inside the house when things are close and personal. They get to be cumbersome moving around the house, around blind corners, and very close combat can be an issue.

[tremiles]

I'd like to go on to say that what works for me may not work for everyone else. Based on the data I've gathered from sources I trust, MY choice for HD is an AR with BH 77gr MatchKing rounds. I believe they are LESS lethal after passing through barriers than modern SD pistol ammunition or 12g ammunition that also penetrates reliably enough to cause rapid incapacitation on unobstructed targets.

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[az gt eater]

I hunt coyotes, handload, and have used the Vmax bullets extensively. I believe based on what I have seen in the field, that a Vmax wouldnt pass through your wrist. The explosive fragmentation is something to behold. I have literally hit a coyote at less than 75 yards in the spine, and it didn't exit. That is a 40 grain at 3200 fps. The faster it goes, the more it fragments. Those type of bullets may be the answer.

[Zinergy]

I hunt coyotes, handload, and have used the Vmax bullets extensively. I believe based on what I have seen in the field, that a Vmax wouldnt pass through your wrist. The explosive fragmentation is something to behold. I have literally hit a coyote at less than 75 yards in the spine, and it didn't exit. That is a 40 grain at 3200 fps. The faster it goes, the more it fragments. Those type of bullets may be the answer.

As I said earlier they sell frangible(or however it is spelled) ammo which is made to break apart. Most of the indoor ranges only let you use that type of ammo there as most are only 25 yards. If you don't have any they will be happy to sell you some for a insane price.

[wileyCoyote]

I believe that's what has been talked about, to reinstate Clintons old ban on assault rifles, and per that structure, it did include the civilian AR15's. Anything with a large capacity magazine whether it's semi auto or not is going to be a target. Even 30 round magazines for hand guns will be a target.

Technically, for self defense a ban on stuff like this would make sense. I'm not saying I'm for it, but you don't really need a high capacity magazine for self defense (however it is fun for target shooting). Something that holds at least 8-10 rounds would be enough for self defense in most instances, even around the house. Not likely you are going to get into a shootout with 3 or 4 thugs that requires 60-80 rounds. And I think this is going to be one of the big topics of discussion. There are already 6-7 states that don't allow anything more than a 10 round magazine, it's only a matter of time before this goes widespread. I think that's why alot of people are in a buying frenzy right now. It's not the small 6 shot revolver hand guns that are flying off the shelves. It's all the high capacity magazine capable firearms that are sold out, including your glocks and rugers, anything that holds more than 10 rounds is just about impossible to find right now.

...since when did we establish a "society" driven merely by "need"?... should the tyrants that the 2A was crafted in resistance to, decide "for us", ...what we "need"???? sounds like quite a conflict of interest to me...

...do i "need" a car that is capable of breaking the speed limit?... do i "need" a car that is "capable" of being driven while intoxicated?... the slope you are going down /w your argument is both steep and slippery

[wileyCoyote]

...to the discussion on AR15s for home defense, etc...

1) handgun rounds are very very good at penetrating drywall.... the slower, heavier projectiles tend to hold together and penetrate these kinds of intermediate barriers quite well...
2) some real tricks in terminal ballistics can happen w/ rifle rounds, especially the small, light .223.... yes the .223 is high velocity, ...but, it tends to destabilze and "upset" very easily when passing through intermediate barriers, ...when these small lightweight rounds start yawing prematurely and hit more material the jacket tends to fracture at the cannulure, and hence begin to break up into fragments... service-caliber handgun rounds tend not to behave in this way, but tend to hold together as they hit more intermediate barriers...

it's a bit misleading to say that a .223 is going to be more dangerous to occupants outside a building than many other commonly used "home defense" guns...

[Firebirdjones]

...since when did we establish a "society" driven merely by "need"?... should the tyrants that the 2A was crafted in resistance to, decide "for us", ...what we "need"???? sounds like quite a conflict of interest to me...

...do i "need" a car that is capable of breaking the speed limit?... do i "need" a car that is "capable" of being driven while intoxicated?... the slope you are going down /w your argument is both steep and slippery

It's not my argument and I didn't say I agree with it, just pointing out that I wouldn't be surprised if it gets this bad.

[SMWS6TA]

The 5.56 rounds the military uses will penetrate a standard issue metal helmet at 500 yards. It will penetrate a police issue kevlar vest. You think that wont go through the wall of a home with lethal force?

As I said before it depends on the type of round which you use but most of the lake city cheaper 5.56 will have no problem going into your neighbors house if you miss.

ask me how I know.........it will also remove an ear at that distance too...

[5.0THIS]

I was thinking the same thing. They make ammo in .223 and 5.56 that is frangible meaning it is not a lead core coated in metal. It is meant to break apart once it hits something and is designed for close quarters combat but in most high speed rounds it still gets some penetration. Your normal FMJ 5.56 or .223 is gonna go through shit.

Yeah I've seen frangible ammo in action, handgun and rifle. I've done some shooting with ballistic tip ammo as well.

I didn't say STOPPED. If you take a look at modern ballistic studies data published from REAL ballistic experts like Dr. Martin Fackler or Dr. Gary Roberts, it clearly shows that popular FMJ/HP (exceptions to Barnes TSX, MK318, bonded humting bullets) begin to frag, whereas modern HP handgun bullets like Fed HST, Winchester Ranger T/B, Speer GD have excellent weight retention, expansion, and penetration after passing through barriers. 00 Buckshot is even more devastating. The data is usually in the stickies of the ammo/terminal ballistic of most popular web forums, notably M4Carbine.net, pistol-forum.com, AR-15.com, brand specific pistol forums. Fragging .223/5.56 is much less lethal after passing through wallboard.

Where is your expert data?

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So you're going to go against what most people use for home defense. So why do so many experts go with shotguns or handguns? You're ignoring alot of tactical reasons why a pistol or shotgun can be a better choice inside a home. And it's not hard to find the videos and articles on home defense weapons of choice. Firebirdjones goes into some of those reasons below. ANd I understand that a frangible-type round can be reasonable inside a house, but, again, those too come with disadvantages, such as the known issue of wild ricochets. And have you considered the noise factor of the AR? The AR is absolutely deafoning, even when compared to a shotgun or pistol. Use one in that siuation and you're very likely to suffer hearing damage.

I like shotguns and their ability to hit just about anything in the general area you are aiming at And rifles are nice too, but not my prefered choice inside the house when things are close and personal. They get to be cumbersome moving around the house, around blind corners, and very close combat can be an issue.

I've done building search classes, and it is without a doubt easier to maneuver around with a handgun. Target acquisition is also quicker than a full length rifle, and doing "quick peaks" around corners. Carrying a rifle in a dark environment is a recipe for smacking the barrel on door jams and walls, even when you're barrel down towards the floor. Some of these same problems exist with the shotgun as well, but it always has the advantage of spread, and numerous types of ammo to reduce the issue of overpenetration. The fact is there is no perfect gun for home defense, but for some people who live alone, a shotgun likely offers the best solution.

...to the discussion on AR15s for home defense, etc...

1) handgun rounds are very very good at penetrating drywall.... the slower, heavier projectiles tend to hold together and penetrate these kinds of intermediate barriers quite well...
2) some real tricks in terminal ballistics can happen w/ rifle rounds, especially the small, light .223.... yes the .223 is high velocity, ...but, it tends to destabilze and "upset" very easily when passing through intermediate barriers, ...when these small lightweight rounds start yawing prematurely and hit more material the jacket tends to fracture at the cannulure, and hence begin to break up into fragments... service-caliber handgun rounds tend not to behave in this way, but tend to hold together as they hit more intermediate barriers...

They also tend to ricochet less, and go in more predictable directions after impacting

[tremiles]

And have you considered the noise factor of the AR? The AR is absolutely deafoning, even when compared to a shotgun or pistol. Use one in that siuation and you're very likely to suffer hearing damage.

I have. My 11.5" AR is suppressed. Firing ANY service grade handgun, rifle, shotgun indoors without hearing protection will cause permanent hearing damage. Auditory exclusion will temporarily allow the brain to ignore the effects, but in the long-term, the damage is there.

As far as target acquisition/identification, a red-dot sighted rifle with a light is miles ahead of a handgun unless it's laser sighted. Mobility of a handgun is a trade-off for firepower of a rifle (and vice-versa admittedly).

You are right though, there isn't a perfect answer for everyone. I in no way mean to minimize anyone's personal choice for defending themselves in their home. The first rule of a gun fight is "have a gun".

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[tremiles]

I would also add that there is a difference between frangible ammo and ammo that fragments. Frangible bullets typically have a powdered/pressed tin core. I don't use frangible ammo, I use .223 brass jacketed lead core 77gr Sierra MatchKings loaded by Black Hills (or 5.56 MK262 when I can find it).

Nearly every brass jacketed lead core rifle bullet that ISN'T bonded will frag after hitting anything solid. These smaller pieces of an already light bullet lose momentum much faster than buckshot pellets or a single handgun bullet making them LESS (not non) lethal if passing through walls.

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[5.0THIS]

I have. My 11.5" AR is suppressed. Firing ANY service grade handgun, rifle, shotgun indoors without hearing protection will cause permanent hearing damage. Auditory exclusion will temporarily allow the brain to ignore the effects, but in the long-term, the damage is there.

As far as target acquisition/identification, a red-dot sighted rifle with a light is miles ahead of a handgun unless it's laser sighted. Mobility of a handgun is a trade-off for firepower of a rifle (and vice-versa admittedly).

My point with the rifle's noise was that it is louder still than a handgun or shotgun, due to the caliber. They are all extremely loud.

As far as lasers go, If you're using a light in either case, you should be able to pick up your sights just as quickly as a laser, especially if you train to use your sights. I already commented on lasers in another thread. I'm not a fan of them, especially considering that alot of times you are going to be shooting from muscle memory alone for speed. More people should train on muscle memory alone, as there can be instances where picking up your sights, or putting a laser on target, just isnt an option.

[tremiles]

Lasers have their place, namely, awkward shooting positions where you can't bring your sights to eye level. They are an additional tool for the toolbox.

I disagree about muscle memory or point shooting being used as a primary shooting method. It also has it's use, shooting from retention (fighting someone off with your weak hand) or up close but outside of maybe 2 yards, the speed with acceptable accuracy advantage disappears vs using sights.

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[az gt eater]

Auditory exclusion will temporarily allow the brain to ignore the effects,


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That explains why when I fire my rifle at an animal while I am hunting, my ears don't ring. I have always wondered why. I thought dopamine or adrenaline was the reason. Two shots at a target, and they ring. Empty it at a coyote, no ring.

[Firebirdjones]

As far as lasers go, If you're using a light in either case, you should be able to pick up your sights just as quickly as a laser, especially if you train to use your sights. I already commented on lasers in another thread. I'm not a fan of them, especially considering that alot of times you are going to be shooting from muscle memory alone for speed. More people should train on muscle memory alone, as there can be instances where picking up your sights, or putting a laser on target, just isnt an option.

I'm not that dependent on lasers either, even though I have one, I find that I really don't use it.

I use the light as you mentioned, clip it on the glock before bed, and use it to find my way around if there is an intrusion. The light is blinding (160 lumens or something ridiculous) and that's really all the advantage you need, from there I can point and shoot easily without turning on the laser.

[5.0THIS]

Lasers have their place, namely, awkward shooting positions where you can't bring your sights to eye level. They are an additional tool for the toolbox.

I disagree about muscle memory or point shooting being used as a primary shooting method. It also has it's use, shooting from retention (fighting someone off with your weak hand) or up close but outside of maybe 2 yards, the speed with acceptable accuracy advantage disappears vs using sights.

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I never said it should be used a primary shooting method. Sights should always be your primary method of aim, but there are situations where it isnt feasible. And if one trains enough, you'd be amazed how accurately you can shoot if the need arises.

[SMWS6TA]

I have found that these "rules" are the equivalent to scientific law.....

Rules for Gunfight:

1) Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2) Anything worth shooting is worth shooting at least twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3) If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
4) Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movements are preferred.)
5) If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
6) In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
7) If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
8) Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
9) Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. Don't trust an untested gun.
10) Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11) Always cheat = always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12) Have a plan. A bad plan quickly executed is better than no plan.
13) Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.
14) If your attack is going according to plan, it's probably an ambush.
15) Use cover and concealment as much as possible.
16) Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
17) Always tactically reload and threat scan 360 degrees at the conclusion of the action.
18) Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God I trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
19) Decide to be AGGRESSIVE enough, QUICKLY enough.
20) The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.
21) Do not deliberately attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."
22) Anyone who claims they know everything about gunfighting is a jerk.
23) Don't rely on a single weapon system. Know how to efficiently use all kinds of different weapons.
24) Remember that after your assailant is down that most likely one of his friends is waiting to kill you.
25) The only thing you ALWAYS know, is you NEVER know!
26) When you least expect it, EXPECT IT.
27) If there is any doubt, there is NO doubt.
28) The are few interpersonal relationship problems that cannot be solved by the judicious use of high explosives or napalm.
29) Remember that tracers work both ways.
30) It never hurts to have too much ammo and loaded magazines. Running out of ammo sucks.
31) "Don't stop shooting when you think he's dead; keep shooting until he thinks he's dead. Dead men sometimes come back to life and shoot you or your buddies."
32) Never leave a place over which you have gained dominance without all your weapons full.

[SMWS6TA]

I never said it should be used a primary shooting method. Sights should always be your primary method of aim, but there are situations where it isnt feasible. And if one trains enough, you'd be amazed how accurately you can shoot if the need arises.

Agree, because in a court of law using a "laser" doesn't cut it for a defense if you accidentally hit a non-combatant.

[SMWS6TA]

My point with the rifle's noise was that it is louder still than a handgun or shotgun, due to the caliber. They are all extremely loud.

As far as lasers go, If you're using a light in either case, you should be able to pick up your sights just as quickly as a laser, especially if you train to use your sights. I already commented on lasers in another thread. I'm not a fan of them, especially considering that alot of times you are going to be shooting from muscle memory alone for speed. More people should train on muscle memory alone, as there can be instances where picking up your sights, or putting a laser on target, just isnt an option.

Not so much due to the caliber as to the load of the gun powder. 9mm have a higher report then .22, while 9mm rifle is much louder then a 9mm pistol.


Point about "Muscle Memory" is correct, it's why I drilled it into my teams and troops while I was in the Army. I can personally testify that "muscle memory" saved my ass 3 times in Iraq. Batteries fail, laser can be obstructed by dirt, etc, never, ever rely on just aids alone. Not to mention "lasers" work both ways. Have a dusty environment and both sides can see them. I have tritium night sights on my Glock. I never have an issue of seeing them at night, worth every penny.