First Ever: 100% stock LS1 Dyno (hahah!)

[preston1980]

I would suggest the differences in dyno numbers is due, by far, to differences in the dyno itself, correction factor, calibration of weather instruments, and running condition of the car (including how warm/cold the engine & intake are) rather than in "factory freaks" or slopply factory tolerances. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that all LS1s of a like year (ie....98-00 and 01/02) that have the same intake and exhaust would dyno within 3% of each other if all the above conditions were equal.

In short - I don't believe in "factory freaks".

I agree with you on the conditions thing. But there are factory freaks (kinda). It depends on your definition of a factory freak. I would say that all LS1's are within 5% of each other, but 5% is alot when you are talking 300 plus horsepower. 1% of 300 hp is 3 horses. So if one ls1 has 305 rwhp and another is 4% more, it would have 317 rwhp. Someone that drove the 2 cars would feel the power differance for sure. I know that I can feel 12 more rwhp.

So if someone drives an LS1 from the low end of the hp pool (290 rwhp) and then drives one from the other end (310 rwhp) they might call it a factory freak. Most LS1 M6 cars dyno between 290-310 rwhp

[Teeeman]

I would suggest the differences in dyno numbers is due, by far, to differences in the dyno itself, correction factor, calibration of weather instruments, and running condition of the car (including how warm/cold the engine & intake are) rather than in "factory freaks" or slopply factory tolerances. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that all LS1s of a like year (ie....98-00 and 01/02) that have the same intake and exhaust would dyno within 3% of each other if all the above conditions were equal.

In short - I don't believe in "factory freaks".

100% in agreement with this.

-T

[Frost]

Hey Teeman,

You differences between pulls weren't heat, they were different offsetting applied long term fuel trims. You can't see it if you aren't data logging. Tuning fixes this and the car will be repeatable afterwards.

There definitely are factory freaks, though few and far between.

I had a local call me... 95K on his car and he had owned it since it was new. He was never able to floor the car (!!! for 95K miles!!!!!) because it would KNOCK LOUDLY. It went to visit 3 different dealerships on 5 different total occasions. It went to 4-5 other various service centers and they could never figure it out. For reference, BONE stock 6-spd cars make about 297-305rwhp on the dyno I use. This one that was knocking though.... man.... I had to take WOT timing down to about 18-19degrees!! This is forced induction low. The first pull was 301rwhp severely knock limited. When I was done tuning this BONE STOCK car, it made 344rwhp. Many cars with lids, headers, ORY just do make that. The owner sent me 4-5 emails over the next week positively ecstatic with the way that the car ran. He had some small hard radials and it would rip them off in first gear now

He had no interest in modding at all, just wanted to be able to drive it normally and he was about to just sell it. Can you imagine 90K+ miles KNOWING that you can't go WOT?

[BLKCLOUD]

Not convinced. Not even sort of.

No offense intended.

[Teeeman]

I know tuning can make a world of difference but I am stunned by how bad this car was from the factory...

... any ideas why it was knocking so badly?

What cured it (in the tuning)?


Was it full of oil vapor sludge and you "blew the soot out" running it on the dyno once the timing was retarded enough to not damage the motor?


Tell me more about what long term fuel trim offset is... what it is designed to do, how it works... ?

(thanks!)



-T

[Frost]

Not convinced. Not even sort of.

No offense intended.

What that I'm telling the truth?? How can I not be offended being called a liar?

If you assume that I am NOT lying, what else do you call a bone stock car that makes over 340rwhp on a dyno where ALL other stock f-bodies make right at 300? My stock TA in my sig pic made 301rwhp on this dyno. Either that is a factory freak or I am a liar, and I'm sure I could dig up the graph... I'm not trying to convince you, just to point out to readers that they are real.

I know tuning can make a world of difference but I am stunned by how bad this car was from the factory...

... any ideas why it was knocking so badly?

What cured it (in the tuning)?


Was it full of oil vapor sludge and you "blew the soot out" running it on the dyno once the timing was retarded enough to not damage the motor?


Tell me more about what long term fuel trim offset is... what it is designed to do, how it works... ?

(thanks!)



-T

GM has a one-size-fits-all calibration for the cars, but there are variations. This one knocked because it didn't need anywhere near the amount of timing that it had from the factory. Many cars knock some on the stock tune, this one did it LOUDLY. This car just needed a different more tailored cal than the GM canned tune.

LTFTs would take a lot of typing but basically they are learned fueling correction. When the base learned correction is positive, it locks in at WOT at it's last value and offsets WOT AFR. With no locked trims, the car will pull within 1 HP or so back to back unless changes are made to the car or calibration.

[Mike0202]

No way a stock ls1 will make 340. Maybe it was a happy dyno.

[BLKCLOUD]

What that I'm telling the truth?? How can I not be offended being called a liar?

If you assume that I am NOT lying, what else do you call a bone stock car that makes over 340rwhp on a dyno where ALL other stock f-bodies make right at 300? My stock TA in my sig pic made 301rwhp on this dyno. Either that is a factory freak or I am a liar, and I'm sure I could dig up the graph... I'm not trying to convince you, just to point out to readers that they are real.

I am not calling you a liar. I believe that you believe it. What I don't believe is that GM made your car with 301 RWHP and this other mechanically identical car with 340 RWHP (a difference of ~11%), and probably some other LS1 with only ~290 RWHP.

I could easily produce you a dyno graph of an LS1 making xxx HP, show you a pic or video, tell you it was stock (perhaps even believe it), and then say "prove me wrong". It's the internet - proof is a difficult commodity to come by - thus it couldn't be done.

I'll say it again - I don't believe in "factory freaks". It is my belief that all LS1 F-bodies make within ~3% HP of each other.

Freak drivers? Sure
Freak track conditions? You bet
Freak weather? No doubt
Freakish dyno numbers? Absolutely
Factory Freak LS1s? Nope

If you disagree, ok. If you are offended, ok. Sorry.

[c5z28]

I am not calling you a liar. I believe that you believe it. What I don't believe is that GM made your car with 301 RWHP and this other mechanically identical car with 340 RWHP (a difference of ~11%), and probably some other LS1 with only ~290 RWHP.

I could easily produce you a dyno graph of an LS1 making xxx HP, show you a pic or video, tell you it was stock (perhaps even believe it), and then say "prove me wrong". It's the internet - proof is a difficult commodity to come by - thus it couldn't be done.

I'll say it again - I don't believe in "factory freaks". It is my belief that all LS1 F-bodies make within ~3% HP of each other.

Freak drivers? Sure
Freak track conditions? You bet
Freak weather? No doubt
Freakish dyno numbers? Absolutely
Factory Freak LS1s? Nope

If you disagree, ok. If you are offended, ok. Sorry.

That was after he got done tuning it-He did the tuning himself. A local with an 02 anniverary dynoed 323 stock tune after tune and nothing else 348rwhp, headers 353hp. I got to look on his garage wall and see all the charts myself. AS for your belief there is no cold hardstone facts for belief either.

[c5z28]

Op my auto stock got 285rwhp down to the carb legal lid.

[Frost]

I am not calling you a liar. I believe that you believe it. What I don't believe is that GM made your car with 301 RWHP and this other mechanically identical car with 340 RWHP (a difference of ~11%), and probably some other LS1 with only ~290 RWHP.

I could easily produce you a dyno graph of an LS1 making xxx HP, show you a pic or video, tell you it was stock (perhaps even believe it), and then say "prove me wrong". It's the internet - proof is a difficult commodity to come by - thus it couldn't be done.

I'll say it again - I don't believe in "factory freaks". It is my belief that all LS1 F-bodies make within ~3% HP of each other.

Freak drivers? Sure
Freak track conditions? You bet
Freak weather? No doubt
Freakish dyno numbers? Absolutely
Factory Freak LS1s? Nope

If you disagree, ok. If you are offended, ok. Sorry.

The car was bone stock. It put down 40 more WHP than any other stock car on this same dyno. I have been using this particular dyno very very regularly for 4 years now. It's a DJ224 so it not like a MD that you can dick with the numbers if you choose. The car was 100% paper filter stock. The owner cared nothing about mods, he just wanted to get rid of the knock that it always had. I drove the car on the street too, it was strong.

In 2003, a friend bought an 01SS M6. This car was never on the dyno. Bone stock, the week he bought it he drove it to two 12.9x passes at 112MPH with dismal 60's. The car weighed 3650-something. With only headers, lid, and descreened MAF (still stock cal) and drag radials he squeaked out an 11.9X at 116MPH with a 1.7X 60' at a DA of about 1500. 112MPH trap at 3650 on a stock car is hard not to call a freak as well. The car backed it up for 3-4 subsequent street nights at the track before any mods. 106-108 is what the stock M6s MPH here in this climate/DA.

[BLKCLOUD]

Edit: Changed my mind....I'll simply refer to my "freak" statements above. BTW....did your buddy ever post this on LS1Tech.com? Lot of real racers over there.

And FYI....I'm quite familiar with the tracks & weather around eastern VA and the Mid-Atlantic states. VMP was my home track for 14 years up until last fall.

[Frost]

No, everything of his that is on the web I put there, he is a country guy. His current car is on my site in a video WantedZ.

He ran those times AT VMP. I remember that night well because another SS owner came up to him and asked what had he done to the car to get the number. His car had headers and lid and he couldn't drive his car into the 12s to save his life. He got mad with disbelief which led to some words.

You don't have to believe it, but others reading that know me know that I do not lie or exaggerate and they can form their own opinions.

[BLKCLOUD]

Ah yes...just noticed the website under your username and a little light bulb came on.....the 40+ RWHP gain from just a tune makes perfect sense now.

[Frost]

It's definitely not anywhere near normal though to have a stock car that always knocked severely from the factory. That is also 4x the gain that a bone stock car usually sees. My own car only picked up 9rwhp when it was 100% stock. I had one bone stock car that I had to fight to get 6rwhp out of. The 'freak' that I am referring definitely had something much different going on inside it because it wanted 6-8 less degrees of timing than the STOCK timing table. As I took out spark the power just jumped up. Without tuning it was still a 'freak', but not in a good connotation because you couldn't hold it at WOT or even heavy throttle. Outside of WOT, most all of the map ended up lower. I have never seen another car like this one. Unlike Jason's car that I mentioned running at VMP, this would have trapped poorly. Jason's car ran 12s back then without any tuning.

[BLKCLOUD]

LOL. Guess I wasn't obvious enough. Oh well.

Sorry - still don't believe in freaks, but have a nice day anyways.

[Danger731]

mY C5 is stock and knocks horribly. I believe the story.

[smslyguy]

Hey Teeman,

You differences between pulls weren't heat, they were different offsetting applied long term fuel trims. You can't see it if you aren't data logging. Tuning fixes this and the car will be repeatable afterwards.

There definitely are factory freaks, though few and far between.

I had a local call me... 95K on his car and he had owned it since it was new. He was never able to floor the car (!!! for 95K miles!!!!!) because it would KNOCK LOUDLY. It went to visit 3 different dealerships on 5 different total occasions. It went to 4-5 other various service centers and they could never figure it out. For reference, BONE stock 6-spd cars make about 297-305rwhp on the dyno I use. This one that was knocking though.... man.... I had to take WOT timing down to about 18-19degrees!! This is forced induction low. The first pull was 301rwhp severely knock limited. When I was done tuning this BONE STOCK car, it made 344rwhp. Many cars with lids, headers, ORY just do make that. The owner sent me 4-5 emails over the next week positively ecstatic with the way that the car ran. He had some small hard radials and it would rip them off in first gear now

He had no interest in modding at all, just wanted to be able to drive it normally and he was about to just sell it. Can you imagine 90K+ miles KNOWING that you can't go WOT?

This is exactly what my 01 ss did as well. I bought it with 19,000 miles on it and everytime i would floor it it would knock. I eventually got efi live tunes and reprogramed the p.c.m. I then found out it wasn't "actual" knock instead it was "burst Knock". The car is modified now so i have no way of knowing what it would have put down on the dyno.

But with a torquer v2 cam and stock heads with a 3 valve grind in them with a full exhaust and bolts on it put down 399 r.w.h.p. with 384 lbs of torque..

[Smittro]

Thread = 3 years old..

[Too Fast]

^^^still has relevant info....